This post is by Harry Stebbings from SaaStr
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Stephen Burton is VP of Smarketing at Harness, the industry’s first continuous delivery as a service platform. To date, Harness has raised $20m in funding from the wonderful Matt Murphy @ Menlo Ventures and BIG Labs. Prior to Harness, Stephen was VP of Marketing at Glassdoor, managing a team of 52 in product marketing, helping grow B2B revenue from $19m to $90m in just 2 years, leading to their $1.2Bn acquisition. Before Glassdoor, Stephen was VP of Product Marketing at AppDynamics where he helped grow B2B revenue from $0 to $100m in a staggering 3 year period, resulting in their $3.9Bn acquisition by Cisco. In Today’s Episode We Discuss:
- How Steve made his way into the world of SaaS and came to be VP of marketing at 2 of the larger B2B exits of the last decade in AppDynamics and Glassdoor? What were Steve’s biggest takeaways from the hyper-scaling at AppDynamics?
Steve has previously said, “Sales and marketing must be one team.” Why does he believe this is so important? What can leaders do to turn this into reality? What works? Where has Steve seen many make mistakes? Where does Steve find common points of tension between sales and marketing? What are the 3 elements that marketing comp should be tied and aligned to? * What does Steve mean when he says, “marketers need to embrace the developer first mindset?” What does this mean for the processes used by marketing teams? Speaking of developer-first, how can startups compete in a war for talent against FB and Google? How can they integrate autonomy into their hiring process as a core advantage?
For Steve, what does devops really mean? What does Steve believe is the right culture for devops teams? Does it differ from traditional dev teams? How can a CEO determine when is the right time to fundamentally invest in devops? What are the required steps to make devops teams as successful as possible?
60 Second SaaStr:
- What does Steve know now that she wishes he had known at the beginning?
When is the right time to pour fuel on the company fire?
The playbook? Is there one? Dangers? Copyability?
What would Steve most like to change in the world of SaaS?
You can also take your SaaStr to go:
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Listen on Google Play Music.
Listen on Spotify.If you would like to find out more about the show and the guests presented, you can follow us on Twitter here: Jason Lemkin
Stephen Burton Transcript: Harry Stebbings: Welcome back to another week on the official SaaStr podcast with me, Harry Stebbings. It would be great to take you behind the scenes of all things SaaStr and the podcast. You can do that on Instagram at hstebbings1996 with two Bs. I would love to see you there, but to our episode today, and it has been a long time since I had a fellow Brit on the show, and so I’m thrilled to change that today as we welcome Stephen Burton to the hot seat today. Harry Stebbings: Stephen is the VP of Smarketing, something we’ll be discussing later, at Harness.io, the industry’s first continuous delivery as a service company. To date, Harness has raised over $20 million in funding from the wonderful Matt Murphy at Menlo and BIG Labs, and prior to Harness, Stephen was VP of Marketing at Glassdoor, managing a team of 52 in product marketing, helping grow to B2B revenue from $19 million to $90 million in just two years, leading to their $1.2 billion acquisition. Harry Stebbings: Before Glassdoor, Stephen was VP of Product Marketing at AppDynamics, where he helped grow B2B revenue from naught to $100 million in a staggering three-year period, resulting in their $3.9 billion acquisition by Cisco. Harry Stebbings: I do also want to say a huge thank you to AppDynamics and Harness founder, Jyoti Bansal, for the intro to Stephen today. I really do so appreciate that. And mojitos on me to thank you. Harry Stebbings: But you’ve heard quite enough from me now, so I’m delighted to hand over to Stephen Burton, VP of Smarketing at Harness.io. Harry Stebbings: Steve, it is absolutely fantastic to have you on the show, having heard so many great things from Jyoti Bansal, so thank you so much for joining me today, Steve. Stephen Burton: Great to be here, Harry. Can’t wait. Harry Stebbings: Oh, I would love, though, to kick off with a little bit about you, so tell me, Steve, how did a true Brit make your way into the world of SaaS and come to be one of the leaders in the world of SaaS marketing with Harness today? Stephen Burton: It’s actually an interesting story. I mean, my career started as a software engineer, and out of frustration, I went into sales. I was a sales engineer, so I got fed up a little bit of salespeople overselling things and having to work weekends to deliver, and then when I got into sales engineering, I did product management ’cause I felt the products we were building didn’t meet the needs of the customer, and then once we built the products, I got frustrated that marketing didn’t really position them or message them properly in the market. Stephen Burton: Cut a long story short, I was working for a monitoring company in the UK, and I was looking at the next big thing in monitoring, and I came across two vendors, AppDynamics and New Relic, and I just emailed Jyoti and a guy called Steve Roop and said, “Hey, you’ve got an evangelist position open. Can I come and talk to you?” Stephen Burton: Two weeks later, they paid for my visa, my green card, and I was lucky enough to relocate in San Francisco, and that’s where I kinda began my journey in marketing at AppDynamics. Harry Stebbings: I absolutely love that. Can I ask an off-the-schedule question? What do you think you did in the interview there that impressed them so much, having flown from the UK, sitting in front of them for that evangelist position? What do you think it was that made them go, “Yeah, this is the guy we want?” Stephen Burton: I think my intro email. I spent a long time drafting the email and personalizing it. I was like, “Look, I know the market. I know your competition. Been doing this for a while. I downloaded the product. I love it,” and just the excitement, the will to want the job, and then when I presented in front of them, I was just myself. I tried to make it interesting. I tried to make it fun. I tried to make myself different to other candidates, and ultimately, they picked me, and yeah, I mean, I was lucky and thankful, really. Harry Stebbings: I’m not sure about lucky. I think skilled and deserving, but what can I say? I do wanna touch on though, the time you spend both at AppDynamics and then at Glassdoor. I have to ask. I’m a massive fan of takeaways and learning, so what were some of the biggest takeaways from really seeing the hyper-growth of AppDynamics and Glassdoor firsthand? Stephen Burton: Yeah, I think the first takeaway for me was pure execution. At AppDynamics, we had a strong team across the board, and we just executed. We had good processes. Everyone was on the same bus. We were going in the same direction, and it just felt like a wave was picking you up and pushing you along all the time, huge alignment between sales and marketing, so a lot of mutual respect between two groups. Stephen Burton: I’d say also as well, freemium and SaaS were really the key to [inaudible 00:06:33]. This was almost 10 years ago, and all of our competition were on-premise software, and so this was really an opportunity to kinda disrupt using the next gen of delivery platforms. Stephen Burton: Glassdoor was slightly different. Glassdoor had a business-to-consumer and a business-to-business. It was also as well a very provocative business model. Glassdoor has huge awareness. People go there and read reviews, and so sometimes, when you engage with employers and you try to sell them services or products, they won’t share how to engage with you, ’cause a lot of customers were like, “Hey, wait a minute. There’s a bad review on my profile. Can you remove it?” And it was fundamentally different, and what I remember most was really trying to understand the buyer, getting in the minds of [inaudible 00:07:14] about people and telling people and understanding what makes them tick. It was a very different attack, but the same principles of marketing applied. Harry Stebbings: I mean, there’s so much to unpack there, and that’s so unfair of you to leave me with so much open playing field. I do wanna pick up on a couple of elements. One, that, again, very unfairly, not on the schedule, but you mentioned that pure execution machine of AppDynamics. I’m, again, fascinated by [inaudible 00:07:35] points within organizational scaling. Harry Stebbings: When you look at the incredible growth that you saw, where did you maybe see that kind of execution machine maybe falter, and there’s kind of that first signs of cracking as you kind of move into the next phase, so to speak? Stephen Burton: I’ll be honest, I didn’t really see a crack. I know that’s a silly thing to say, but we were all aligned. We all understood and trusted what we were doing. We kept the messaging and the go-to-market simple. We had a process that worked. It was almost a land grab opportunity. I think maybe the only cracks was where we introduced new product, so where we had our core products that would do most of the damage. Stephen Burton: We were always interested to introduce new products to the market, and if anything, I think we were a bit keen to push multiple products a bit too early because the market was there for the taking, so maybe some go-to-market and some of our energy was spent on other products that maybe weren’t ready in the early stages. I think that might’ve been the only crack, really, that I saw during that time. Harry Stebbings: The other element though, that I do also have to pick up on was you mentioned the kind of alignment there between sales and marketing working so perfectly in unison, and when we chatted before, you said to me that sales and marketing should be one team, yet at 99% of companies, they’re not. Harry Stebbings: So let’s start on that, and fundamentally, why is it so important for sales and marketing to be one team, do you think, today? Stephen Burton: Yeah, I think in a startup, if you boil it down, it’s about selling. If you don’t make money, you can’t grow. You can’t convince other people to give you money to grow, and startups is fun, but it’s a business. The role of marketing is to help sales sell, and it’s not about creating a logo. It’s not about the perfect press release. It’s like, “How are you gonna work together to sell a product or a service?” Stephen Burton: The alignment has to be there, and the companies that I’ve worked at previously where it wasn’t there, I kinda looked back and was like, “It’s not surprising we didn’t make it,” and yet, the companies I’ve worked at, I’ve tried to align sales and marketing so we’re all aligned on revenue, one the right metrics maybe vs. the vanity metrics that maybe traditional marketing teams that have used in the past that kinda sales roll their eyes and are like, “Why are you tracking that?” Harry Stebbings: No, I love that, in terms of the sales rolling their eyes, but you mentioned the metrics there and how one assesses the marketing team is always super interesting for me. I had Joe Chernov on the show, and he said, “Marketing must be held accountable to a number directly tied to revenue.” Would you agree with this, Steve, and how do you think about performance measurement for the marketing team, so to speak? Stephen Burton: Absolutely. In fact, at AppDynamics and Glassdoor, 50% of marketing’s comp was attached to revenue. The rest was attached to pipeline and qualified opportunities, so you’ve gotta have it aligned with revenue, and even in sales enablement, having it attached to sales ramp time, the productivity of sales reps, that’s a big metric as you’re growing a new startup. How quickly can you get your reps firing and getting them delivering? Harry Stebbings: Can I ask a strange question? But you mentioned there qualified leads being the other half of it. Does that not incentivize SDRs to maybe lower the bar, in terms of the qualifications needed to be a qualified lead? Stephen Burton: I think sales qualified lead is key. I think marketing has to understand, it’s quality, not quantity. I think this is another big issue with sales and marketing is marketing’s sometimes always about, “Hey, I generated 5,000 leads.” So what? What sales wanna know is, “Hey, how many real good meetings or how many at bats did you set up for me this week?” Stephen Burton: I think marketing has to look at, “Well, what does ‘qualified’ mean?” Is it the right person? Do they have a need? Do they have influence? Do they have budget? It can’t just be someone that has a pulse that’s gonna jump on a WebX or a meeting and take a meeting. Harry Stebbings: Yeah, I’m totally with you. Okay, so we have this kind of incredible need for the two to be in unison, being sales and marketing. If we then imagine ourselves in a leadership position in a startup or a scaling firm, what can the leadership then do to tangibly create this alignment between sales and marketing? Stephen Burton: We just did our sales kickoff at Harness this week, and everyone in marketing was there, so being included in the meetings, being included in the planning, meeting every week and discussing what’s working, what isn’t, and just, it comes down to people, right? And I hear this a lot, startups is 99% people and 1% technology. It’s collaborating. It’s having a culture of alignment and togetherness, and for me, the competition’s on the outside. It’s not on the inside, and I think just spending time with your peers themselves. Stephen Burton: One smart thing we did at AppD is made sales and marketing sit together, so every time the reps came in, they saw the marketing team. They knew what they were up to, and that created a very strong culture between the two teams. Harry Stebbings: No, I love to hear about them sitting together and actively doing that. In terms of–really unfair of me to switch to the downsides–in terms of the points of friction or tension, where, in the cases where there was some, do you kind of commonly see points of friction or tension between sales and marketing? Stephen Burton: Yeah, I think where I’ve seen it is where you have people who come into a marketing team with perceptions of how marketing should be, based on the old world of the more traditional marketing model, and they really fail to understand the sales rep, and one of the big learning points for me was being a sales engineer and working with great sales leaders is, you get to walk in their shoes where you get to see their life. Stephen Burton: It’s really important marketing people understand what makes a rep tick, what they need to succeed, and ultimately, what things you have to deliver for them to be successful. I think traditional marketing gets frustrated with maybe the lack of passions or sometimes the confidence or maybe an arrogance at times, but they don’t see sales as a partner. They see sales as someone who [inaudible 00:12:54] and creates problems and asks them loads of things. Stephen Burton: It’s totally the wrong way of looking at sales. Getting to know how you sell, for me, is what more marketing teams need to do. Harry Stebbings: Now, this is unfair of me. You said there about, “What does it mean to understand the sales rep?” What does it mean to understand the sales rep? If you wanted to imbue that knowledge on a marketer so they could get inside the head of that rep, what would you say to them? Stephen Burton: I mean, what I did was I got some opportunities and went and sold myself. I think it’s great [inaudible 00:13:22] correct messaging and [inaudible 00:13:24] and pricing and creating tools for the reps, but if that doesn’t work in reality, it’s kind of a waste of time, so, for me, I would get the marketing team to sit on first meetings to watch the demos, to listen to the objections and the questions that come back, and honestly, I would give some marketing people one or two opportunities on some leads to go and sell, and be like, “There you go. Right, go and pitch it. Right, go and use your messaging. Go and use your tools,” and as you go through the process of selling, you entangle all of the complexities. Stephen Burton: Big thing for me was, I couldn’t believe the amount of legal and procurement and BS that went on towards the end of the sales cycle. I just was like, “Hey, you go ahead, and you do your first meeting, you do a demo, you do an evaluation, customer buys. Doesn’t work like that,” and so you soon understand why reps complain about quality because they want all their time best spent on the best opportunities and meetings. They don’t wanna be wasting hours of their time with someone who’s got a pulse that doesn’t understand what they’re saying or is maybe not the right person. Harry Stebbings: Can I ask, we’ve seen the growth of the role of marketing expand so much beyond just kind of adding to the funnel and kind of the warming of leads continuously throughout the funnel, how do you see the future of sales and marketing? Would it almost be an entire integration of the two roles as we know it? Stephen Burton: Yeah. I hope so. I created my own title, called “smarketing,” which is sales-marketing ’cause I think it is one team. I think you still need two leaders, ’cause obviously, sales process and the depth of what you need to go into in sales is very different than marketing, but it’s one go-to-market team, and they help each other, and if sales is successful, marketing should be ultimately successful as well because they have more case studies, they have more success from customers, there’s more proof points. You kinda feed the flywheel. Harry Stebbings: So if that was kind of sales and marketing, the kind of fundamental importance of their relationship, if we kind of apply that to a different element of the business, kind of the developer-first mindset is everything. So, discussing that, I do wanna ask, you’ve said to me before, “To succeed in SaaS, you must embrace a developer-first mindset.” Going deeper here, what is a developer-first mindset, and do we not have this already with our appreciation and respect of all things devs today, especially when leading comp figures? Stephen Burton: I think if you look at what developers are today, they’re being agile. They’re doing continuous delivery. They’re moving really, really quickly. They’re making updates and changes daily. Stephen Burton: If you apply that to sales and marketing, they’re more following a waterfall process where change is very infrequent, and when it is a change, it’s normally a big change, and I think the developer mindset is, “How do I move fast? How do I continuously deploy new features or innovation? How do I automate things?” Stephen Burton: If you kinda look at as well, devops has become a huge culture for a lot of the dev, from an engineer organizations, and I think this turns that sales and marketing and other business kinda teams can learn from developers. Harry Stebbings: What do you think the biggest things you’ve learned from developers are? Too intrigued not to ask that. Stephen Burton: I think automation and metrics, so if you can automate, you build all of your tasks, how you deploy, how you verify, you can push changes to your customers in minutes. When I was a developer, that took months, and so focusing on automation, having the right metrics to understand the impact of your work. So a lot of developers have monitoring tools, AppDynamics or New Relic, and literally once they push changes to a customer, they can monitor and watch the impact. Stephen Burton: I think it needs to be the same for sales and marketing as well. Automation, there’s so many different pieces of the puzzle on backend systems. You got CRM, you got analytics, you’ve got your marketing automation. Everything needs to work together, and you need to get insight and metrics out of them to kinda make decisions, and culture’s big, right? I mean, devops is culture, and so devops and sales and marketing are almost two parallels. You could almost say the same. Harry Stebbings: No, absolutely, and I love thinking about it from that kind of parallel mindset. I do have to ask, you mentioned devops, the developer-first mindset. I am intrigued. You’re in the middle of kind of one of the world’s most massive ecosystems when it comes to talent. How do you think about startups competing for the talent that we just mentioned, be it the leaders in sales, marketing, devops, whatever that function may be in a market with the likes of Google and Facebook? How do you think about that talent competition? Stephen Burton: I mean, it’s fierce. I mean, at Glassdoor, when we were recruiting, I mean, everyone was complaining, “We can’t hire engineers.” I think, for me, it comes down to, how do you empower developers? Traditionally, developers, you’d work on projects, and other people would deploy and take control, and you didn’t really have control of your destiny. You were almost pigeonholed into the code of the component you were working on, and today’s world, I think you have technologies like micro-services that allow developers to push their own code into production very, very quickly, and so, celebrating developers’ success and helping them have autonomy, I think, makes them feel like they can have an impact on the business, and so that, for me, is what stands out. Stephen Burton: When I was a developer and something broke, we got shouted at. We got nasty emails, and it was like, “Hey, what have you broke this week?” I think the mindset needs to change from the business where, “I’m a developer. I push my own code to production, and suddenly, revenue or throughput increases,” and some of the businesses are like, “Hey, what just happened?” Stephen Burton: It’s like, “Ah, well, Steve just deployed a new micro-service, and it had a massive impact on the business.” That level of transparency between developers and the business, I think that’s what needs to happen, and if you’re recruiting engineers, how are you gonna give ’em autonomy and let them do what they do best and see their impact they have on the business? Harry Stebbings: In terms of giving them autonomy, and [inaudible 00:18:37] to recruiting, filling the funnel there, so to speak, in terms of that retention element, how do you think you can make the work environment as appealing and attractive as possible when recruiting but also post, just to ensure that employee satisfaction once there? Stephen Burton: Yeah. Good question. I think it goes beyond free lunch and free beer. I think engineers like working with smart engineers and like to solve really difficult problems and do that with maybe bleeding edge technology or technology that’s in the early stages, so I think one way of doing it, again, is if you can do continuous delivery and you can push a lot more innovation weekly or daily or monthly, the amount of problems you’re gonna solve is gonna be bigger, as opposed to when I was working, it was like, “Hey, let’s do 15 weeks of development on the same thing. Then, let’s test it.” Stephen Burton: I think today’s world, it’s like, all that’s done in one day. I could build a small bit of code, test it, push it in production, and I’d get to see its impact, so I think moving fast and really, giving developers what they need to succeed. We had to almost squeal and shout just to get simple tools when I was a developer. Today, it’s very different. If dev needs something, like an Amazon account or a tool, they just need to shout, and they generally get what they need. Harry Stebbings: You said about kinda great developers love working together there. One other seismic shift we have seen is the rise of remote working. How do you think about all that? What are your thoughts there? I’d love to hear how you think about it. Stephen Burton: I think it’s a lot easier now. I think technologies like Slack, for sure, and even video conferencing is getting better, and I feel we have some developers that are remote in India, and honestly, I don’t notice the difference. The dev team in India compared to San Francisco, the ones working at home, everyone’s working independently on different tracks or different features. The teams are together when they need to be, and they just work smarter. Stephen Burton: We have a distributed team, and it doesn’t feel like it’s distributed. Don’t know whether that’s the tools and technologies or just the quality of people we have, but it’s very different to when I was a developer 10, 15 years ago and we had developers in every city of the world. Harry Stebbings: Yeah. No, absolutely. I couldn’t agree with you more there, in terms of seamless lines of communication. I do wanna pick up on one final thing before my favorite, being the quick fire. You mentioned the rise of devops earlier. I think it’s cool. I do wanna kind of dig in. What, fundamentally, do you think devops is about? Very meta question. Stephen Burton: Yeah. For me, it’s culture, automation. It’s collaboration, and it’s knowing the impact of your work, and that’s generally through metrics. I also think a big part of the culture is the EQ of people. Developers are generally high IQ, very smart, very intelligent, but maybe less so on EQ, which is the emotional intelligence, and a big part of devops culture is feedback and knowing what works and what doesn’t and avoiding the blame game and being that, “Hey, you’re giving me feedback ’cause you want things to get better,” vs., “You’re giving me feedback ’cause you think I suck.” Stephen Burton: I do think emotional intelligence and EQ is something, again, I’ve seen it in sales and marketing, the more you get on with people you work with and the more you can give feedback, the more everyone gets better, so I think those things are kinda key to devops. Harry Stebbings: I’m totally with you in terms of EQ. The one thing that I always struggle with though is how do you determine the true strength of character of someone and something like EQ through such a short process in terms of relationship building, with kind of maybe two or three interviews? How do you think about revealing someone’s true character in the interview process, and do you have any favorite questions you’d like to ask which really show whether someone has what you think it takes to be a part of the Harness team? Stephen Burton: Yeah. I think what you’re looking for is transparency. Are they giving you authentic answers, or are they just telling you what you wanna hear? And I always drill and be like, “Yeah, right, why do you want the job?” Stephen Burton: “Oh, well, I like working with people.” Stephen Burton: “Why?” Stephen Burton: And if you get to that point, if it’s salespeople, I always ask, “Why do you wanna work in sales?” First answer isn’t money, I’m generally a little big skeptical, and for me, it’s authentic answer. They’re being transparent. Do I feel like I know the person vs. I know the interview candidate? Because when people open up and they’re almost honest and pragmatic about either their career or their journey, chances are, they’re being honest and open for a reason. Stephen Burton: I mean, we had, at Glassdoor, we had EQ coaching for all of the teams, so I don’t think you can necessarily sense it straightaway in an interview, but what you can do is coach people once they join and help them get better at EQ. Stephen Burton: For me, personally, it was a six-month process. It wasn’t like snap your fingers and suddenly, like I had better emotional intelligence. Harry Stebbings: No, I love that, and I love the element of kinda proactive coaching. I do have to ask, though, ’cause we kind of jumped and stepped out by talking about devops because a question that I get from a lot of founders is, “Great. I know I need devops at some stage of the company life cycle, but fundamentally, when?” Harry Stebbings: So what would your advice be to founders on when’s the right time to really invest in devops, and why that time? Stephen Burton: I think if you’re not doing it now, you have to. I think devops is a mindset and a culture that’s gonna transform your business, and for me, it’s a survival. It’s something you do to survive. All of the companies that are not doing devops or not doing continuous delivery, they’re probably not gonna be around in five or six years because developers are gonna eat their lunch in other companies, and the time to do devop in [inaudible 00:23:29] was years ago. The signs were there. Stephen Burton: If you watched the fastest growing companies on what they’re doing differently, I think there’s a lot where you can look at and be like, “Ah, right. I get it. They move fast, lot of automation. There’s collaboration between teams.” Stephen Burton: I think too many companies have stuck in the old way of doing it because they’ve been doing it for 10 years, and changing is tough, right? There’s nothing worse than telling someone who’s done the same job for five years to change what they’re doing, and for me, you have to do devops to survive. Don’t see how you can be successful if you’re not doing all the attributes of what a devops team does. Harry Stebbings: Listen, I love a binary answer, so that makes me very happy. A nuanced answer is my absolute worst nightmare, so that’s great to hear. I do wanna finish though, Stephen, on a 60-second SaaStr. So essentially, I say a short statement, and then you give me your immediate thoughts. Are you ready? Stephen Burton: Sure. Harry Stebbings: So, marketing and demand gen are one in the same. Thoughts? Stephen Burton: Demand gen’s a piece of marketing. Harry Stebbings: When is the right time to pour fuel on the company fire? Stephen Burton: I think when you’ve got 30 or 40 customers and you feel like the feedback you’re hearing validates your hypothesis that you began with. Harry Stebbings: The playbook, is there one? Copy-ability? Dangers? What are your thoughts? Stephen Burton: There are playbooks, but you need to tailor them to your market and your customer. You can’t copy. Copying is bad ’cause it almost leads you into a false sense of security that it will succeed. Harry Stebbings: What would you most like to change in the world of SaaS today, Steve? Stephen Burton: For me, being a marketer, I’d like companies to be honest about what they actually do and the problems they solve. I think too many SaaS companies position themselves as something they’re not to try to be relevant. Harry Stebbings: Yeah. Actually, or to frame themselves well for VCs. I see a huge amount of systems of record which, kind of drill down, they’re not fundamentally systems of record. So yeah, absolutely. And then final one, Steve. What do you know now that you wish you’d known in the beginning? Now, you can choose the beginning. It can be the beginning of your time with AppD. It can be the beginning of your time with Glassdoor or Harness, but what do you know now that you wish you’d known in the beginning of dot, dot, dot? Stephen Burton: You don’t have to be right all the time. I think it’s okay not to be right. I think learning from others. For me, I learned the most from three or four leaders that I worked with, and they taught me, it’s cool not to be right all the time. Harry Stebbings: Listen, Steve, I absolutely love that. This has been so much fun. Thank you so much for joining me today. As I said, I heard so much from Jyoti, so it really has been a pleasure. Stephen Burton: Ah, you’re welcome. Loved it, Harry. Thank you for inviting me. Harry Stebbings: What a hero. I wanna say a huge thank you to Steve for giving up the time today to be on the show. Such exciting times ahead for Harness, and if you’d like to see more from Steve, you can find him on Twitter, @burtonsays. Likewise, it’d be great to welcome you behind the scenes here at SaaStr. You can do that on Instagram, @hstebbings1996 with two Bs. It really would be great to see you there. Harry Stebbings: As always, I so appreciate all your support, and I can’t wait to bring you another fantastic episode next Monday. The post SaaStr Podcast #225: Stephen Burton, VP of Smarketing at Harness Discusses How To Create True Alignment Between Marketing and Sales appeared first on SaaStr.